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	<title>GarGamer &#187; CCC</title>
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	<description>A blog about geeks, gamers, games and everything they love.</description>
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		<title>D&amp;D 3.5 vs 4.0 &#8211; Character Creation Challenge MAXIMUM!1!!</title>
		<link>http://gargamer.com/rpgs/dungeons-and-dragons/dd-3-5-vs-4-0-character-creation-challenge-maximum1</link>
		<comments>http://gargamer.com/rpgs/dungeons-and-dragons/dd-3-5-vs-4-0-character-creation-challenge-maximum1#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Paradisio</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Character Creation Challenge]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dungeons And Dragons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[RPGs]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[3.5]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[4e]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[CCC]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Character Creation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[D&D]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gargamer.com/?p=394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well first of all, if you&#8217;re a regular follower, you&#8217;re probably going&#8230; &#8220;Wut? You already did Dungeons and Dragons 4e!&#8221; Yes well, first, I have yet to do D&#38;D 3.5 (or Chainmail, or 1&#8230;2&#8230;or 3, more on those later!) And I had an interesting idea, what if I put these two games side by side [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well first of all, if you&#8217;re a regular follower, you&#8217;re probably going&#8230; &#8220;Wut? You already did <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786948671?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=garg-20&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0786948671">Dungeons and Dragons 4e!</a><img style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=garg-20&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=0786948671" border="0" alt="" width="1" height="1" />&#8221; Yes well, first, I have yet to do <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786928867?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=garg-20&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0786928867">D&amp;D 3.5</a><img style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=garg-20&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=0786928867" border="0" alt="" width="1" height="1" /> (or Chainmail, or 1&#8230;2&#8230;or 3, more on those later!) And I had an interesting idea, what if I put these two games side by side and did character creation? More precisely, what if I did it a maximum level to see how they compare? And that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m doing. As you may or may not know, 3.5 normally goes up to 20, but effectively has no maximum level with the epic level rules, but they are a total mess in my experience so I&#8217;m just going to do it to 20, while likewise doing 4e the same.</p>
<p>What class? Well, good question, but I wanted something, well, perhaps not so easy in either. So I pick the class in both which probably has the most options: Wizard. As per my normal CCC rules, I&#8217;m sticking to the core books, and not Wizard&#8217;s definition of &#8220;core&#8221;, that means players handbook (1) only and/or Dungeon Master&#8217;s Guide. Adding additional source books will just make this take longer and add to the complexity needlessly for a comparison. But unlike my usual CCC entries, I won&#8217;t actually post step by steps, I&#8217;ll do that some other time.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t &#8220;4e is better&#8221; or &#8220;4e is teh sux&#8221;, I actually like both editions, but 3.5 just has worn on me and I find it needlessly complex for my gaming needs. But I know some people like that, I think this will show in character creation. My estimates is that 4e will be significantly faster but have fewer options. I am including a time as well for how long it took me (includes writing the relevant section in this article), and as a disclaimer my experience in 3.5 far outweighs my 4e experience. Take this with a grain of salt, no need to get all worked up over my article or a fun game!</p>
<p><span id="more-394"></span></p>
<p>One last note, I did use as similar methods as possible. Both characters are Human, Wizards, Maximum level using the standard point buy. No extra rules, no helping programs, just books.</p>
<table border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-445" title="wtc17524" src="http://gargamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/wtc17524.jpg" alt="wtc17524" width="201" height="261" /></td>
<td><img class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-446" title="d90270c4" src="http://gargamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/d90270c4-228x300.jpg" alt="d90270c4" width="202" height="260" /></td>
</tr>
<tr style="text-align: center;">
<td><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Edition</strong></span></td>
<td><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>3.5</strong></span></td>
<td><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>4</strong></span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Race/Racial Information</td>
<td>Human<br />
Size: Medium<br />
Speed: 30 feet<br />
1 Extra Feat at first level<br />
Extra Skill Points<br />
Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Undercommon</td>
<td>Human<br />
Size: Medium<br />
Speed: 6<br />
Vision: Normal<br />
Languages: Human, Draconic<br />
+2 to any one stat (Intelligence)<br />
Bonus At-Will Power<br />
Bonus Feat<br />
Bonus Skill<br />
Human Defense Bonus: +1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Class</td>
<td>15 Wizard/5 Archmage</td>
<td>Level 30 Wizard/Spellstorm Mage/Archmage</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Attributes</td>
<td>Str: 8<br />
Dex: 19 (+4)<br />
Con: 16 (+3)<br />
Int: 33 (+11)<br />
Wis: 10<br />
Cha: 10</td>
<td>Str: 10<br />
Dex: 12 (+1)<br />
Con: 12 (+1)<br />
Int: 28 (+9)<br />
Wis: 22 (+6)<br />
Cha: 13 (+1)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Stats/Defenses</td>
<td>HP: 110<br />
AC: 25<br />
Fort +14<br />
Ref +15<br />
Will +18<br />
Initiative +7<br />
Speed: 6</td>
<td>HP: 153<br />
Surge: 38<br />
Surges/day: 7<br />
Staff of Defense<br />
Initiative +20<br />
Speed: 7<br />
AC: 44<br />
Fort: 34<br />
Ref: 42<br />
Will: 39</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Attack/Damage</td>
<td>BAB +7/+2<br />
To hit with ranged touch: +11<br />
Spell DCs: 21/22/23/24/25/26/27/28/29/30</td>
<td>Standard to hit with int based spells/abilities: +30<br />
Standard Damage bonus: +15</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Skills</td>
<td>Knowledge Arcana +34<br />
Spellcraft +34<br />
Concentration +25<br />
Decipher Script +34<br />
Knowledge (Everything Else) +16<br />
Search +24</td>
<td>Arcane +29<br />
History +29<br />
Dungeoneering +26<br />
Nature +29</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Feats</td>
<td>Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Craft Wand, Improved initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration</td>
<td>Ritual Caster, Armor Proficiency (Leather), Action Surge, Burning Blizzard, Expanded Spellbook, Human Perseverance, Improved Initiative, Toughness, Action Recovery, Blood Thirst, Devastating Critical, Great Fortitude, Fleet-Footed, Lightning Arc, Lightning Reflexes, Point-Blank Shot, Arcane Mastery, Epic Resurgence, Spell Accuracy, Irresistible Flame</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Spells/Abilities/Rituals</td>
<td>Summon Familiar (Toad)</p>
<p>Spellbook:<br />
0: All<br />
1: 8 &#8211; Shield, Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Charm Person, Magic Missile, Tenser&#8217;s Floating Disk<br />
2: 4 &#8211; Glitterdust, Melf&#8217;s Acid Arrow, Fog Cloud, Web<br />
3: 4 &#8211; Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Fireball, Fly<br />
4: 4 &#8211; Evard&#8217;s Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Enervation, Wall of Fire<br />
5: 4 &#8211; Dismissal, Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Stone<br />
6: 4 &#8211; Greater Dispel Magic, Repulsion, Analyze Dweomer, True Seeing<br />
7: 4 &#8211; Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Prismatic Spray, Limited Wish<br />
8: 4 &#8211; Clone, Polymorph Any Object, Temporal Stasis, Summon Monster VIII<br />
9: 8 &#8211; Imprisonment, Mordenkainen&#8217;s Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Summon Monster IX, Power Word Kill, Shapechange</p>
<p>Spells/Day:<br />
0: 4<br />
1: 7<br />
2: 7<br />
3: 7<br />
5: 4<br />
6: 6<br />
7: 5<br />
8: 3<br />
9: 4</p>
<p>High Arcana: Spell Power, Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Arcane Fire, Spell Like Ability (Polymorph Any Object)</td>
<td>Wizard: Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation</p>
<p>At Will (3): Magic Missile, Thunderwave, Cloud of Daggers</p>
<p>Encounter (P/27/23/17): Storm Cage, Confusion, Chain Lightning, Combust</p>
<p>Daily (P/29/25/19): Maelstrom of Chaos, Legion&#8217;s Hold/Meteor Swarm/Greater Ice Storm, Prismatic Spray/Necrotic Web/Elemental Maw, Disintegrate/Cloudkill/Evard&#8217;s Black Tentacles</p>
<p>Utility (E/P/22/16/10/6/2): Shape Magic, Sudden Storm, Time Stop/Mass Fly, Displacement/Greater Invisibility, Blur/Mirror Image, Dimension Door/Dispel Magic, Expeditious Retreat/Shield</p>
<p>Rituals: Comprehend Languages, Make Whole, Tenser&#8217;s Floating Disk, Brew Potion, Knock, Raise Dead, Disenchant Magic Item, View Location, Passwall, Consult Oracle, Planar Portal, Forbiddance, Observe Creature</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Equipment/Money</td>
<td>Ring of Protection +5<br />
Tome of Clear Though (+5 Int)<br />
Strand of Prayer Beads<br />
Slippers of Spider Climbing<br />
Headband of Intellect +6<br />
Cloak of Resistance +5<br />
Bracers of Armor +6<br />
Bag of Holding Type IV<br />
Amulet of Health +6<br />
Big Carpet of Flying<br />
Manual of Quickness in Action (+5 dex)<br />
173400gp</td>
<td>Cloak of Invisibility +5<br />
Staff of Storms +6<br />
Starleather Bloodcut Armor +6<br />
Boots of the Infinite Stride<br />
Ring of Wizardry<br />
Handy Haversack<br />
2x Potion of Recovery<br />
Everlasting Provisions<br />
19160gp</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><strong>Time to Complete</strong></td>
<td><strong>1 Hour</strong></td>
<td><strong>54 Minutes</strong></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>Well, these aren&#8217;t exactly going to hit the character optimization boards, but I think they are reasonable characters that someone would create on the fly for a high level campaign. Frankly, I found 4e high level creation be much more fun, making a high level character is 3.5 was a pain because I had to go back and figure out at what points I had what intelligence score. I had quite a bit of money left over on both characters, more than enough to slide in some equipment to plug up any holes.</p>
<p>It only took me a few more minutes to make a 3.5 character, but that&#8217;s with years of experience in the system and knowing most of the spells I wanted already almost by heart.</p>
<p>Interestingly, without buying any scrolls the base characters don&#8217;t have a huge divergence in the sheer number of abilities/spells. 4e had 46 spells/abilities/rituals while in 3.5 my character has 47 spells available at any one time; difference being I have more customization in the latter.</p>
<p>Honestly though, in the end, I found 4e character creation much more enjoyable, but I&#8217;m a bit jaded after a few years of playing 3.5.</p>
<p>Hopefully, this has proved interesting or maybe even a little entertaining. In the end, I think both systems are great, just pick the one that&#8217;s right for you, it really boils down to a single question in my opinion: do you want detail or ease of use?</p>
<p><img class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-453" title="1245264601287" src="http://gargamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/1245264601287-300x226.jpg" alt="1245264601287" width="300" height="226" /></p>
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